"gul·li·ble (gl-bl)
adj.
Easily deceived or duped."

How do we know anyone's religion? They tell us. Obama tells us that he is a big C Christian. He is also a member of a Chtistian church, attends services, and contributes. What other test is there?

Is it possible that so many people have an opinion about his religion based on evidence that trumps his own testimony? Isn't it more likely that they simply tell pollsters that they believe it because they wish to delegitimize him in a country where there is no de jure religious test for office but where Christians impose a de facto one of their own devising?

Why do people think he's a Muslim?

-His name is Muslim sounding
Barrack Hussein Obama

-his father is a Muslim

-he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia

-He is for the Mosque at ground zero

-He has instucted Nasa to promote Islamic scientific achievements

-his regime is repairing Islamic sites through out the world with US tax dollars

-M Quaddfy of Libya said he was a Muslim

-He apologized to the Muslim countries for the US actions

-The only Christianity we see is that he attended a Black Liberation Church with Reverand J Wright but said he never listened or paid attention.

So to most people he is either a Muslim or a closet Muslim...what else should one conclude? Bill Clinton always had his bible with him, but we never see that with Barrack. And most importantly why does it even matter if he is a Muslim? Islam is the religion that the left promotes. They certainly do not promote Christianity or the Jewish religions. They attack them. So they should be celebrating that he is a Muslim.

Finally, I figured out what the problem is. I have to admit I am out of touch because I am concerning myself with issues that don’t matter. Things like, our borders being wide open to terrorists, troops in harms way overseas, IRAN becoming a Nuclear power, no jobs in this country, a looming recession soon to be a long term depression.

Instead, what really matters is whether I am Islam phobic or if Clemons lied or if the Beck rally and those attending are racist or if I think Obama is a Muslim. No wonder I think things are broken. I have been focusing on all the wrong issues! Our government is doing a great job, they are not the problem, I am the problem. Now I get it.

Here's just one reason out of many....
---------------------------------------
O's terror outrage:

August 30, 2010

Americans are learning there's one minority group President Obama is never afraid to offend: families of victims of Islamist terror.

First, Attorney General Eric Holder wanted to try Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of the 9/11 attack, in lower Manhattan -- which nearly everyone, even Mayor Bloomberg (eventually), realized would be a standing insult to the memory of KSM's victims.

Then came Obama's "I was for it before I was against it" stance on the Ground Zero mosque -- another slap at 9/11 victims' families.

Now, last Friday, we learned that "no charges are either pending or contemplated" against one of the deadliest and most dangerous al Qaeda operatives, Abd al Rahim al Nashiri, mastermind of the October 12, 2000, bombing of USS Cole that killed 17 sailors and officers and wounded dozens more.

The hope of families that lost loved ones on that terrible day, that after a decade justice would finally be done, has faded to zero.

It's worth remembering how this outrage -- which I predicted in a column back in February 2009 -- came about.

In the wake of the Twin Towers attack and despite howls of protest from the civil liberties left, the Bush administration rounded up leading Islamist terrorists around the world and put them to CIA interrogation. One of them was al Nashiri, a Saudi national who set off the attack on the USS Cole in 2000 as the destroyer was moored peacefully in Aden harbor.

Under President George W. Bush's executive order establishing trials of terrorists by military commission, authorities painstakingly gathered evidence against al Nashiri -- even as groups like ACLU howled that such commissions would violate terrorists' rights and should be shut down.

The gathering of evidence dragged on for nearly six years, until in January 2009 Obama ordered Defense Secretary Gates to suspend all military commission proceedings, including against al Nashiri.

Cole's former skipper, Capt. Kirk Lippold, and the Cole victims' families fought hard to reopen the case against their sons' and daughters' killers -- who in the meantime had been found guilty of terrorism and sentenced to death in a court in Yemen. They even met with President Obama, who promised them he was only waiting for the "right judge" before reopening the case under new rules.

Now, on Friday, we learned the "right judge" meant no judge at all. A Defense Department spokesman insisted that the fact that no charges will be brought before a military commission doesn't mean the case is over. But it will be a long time before this mess is finally sorted out. Yet it's a mess of Obama's own making.

After 9/11 Bush and other Americans understood that we were in a war, not a "Law and Order" episode. They understood that such a war required more effective instruments than our civilian courts and the normal legal process. The time-tested, Supreme Court-approved system of military tribunals for trying enemy combatants was one such instrument.

Obama told his political allies on the left that as president he'd turn Bush's War on Terror upside down. The terrorists would now get constitutional protections; and those who fought against them would go to jail as "war criminals."

Now, Obama's popularity is in a tailspin. Late night comics joke about his being a one-term president. The civil liberties left is furious with him for failing to close Gitmo and to prosecute a single former Bush official -- not to mention for keeping US troops in Afghanistan. If he starts even one military trial of an alleged terrorist, even one who attacked a mili tary installation, he loses whatever shred of credibility he still has with his political base. (The two commissions under way both began under Bush.)

"It seems like nobody really cares," says Gloria Clodfelter, whose 21-year-old son died in the Cole bombing. Like the KSM trial and Obama's stance on the Ground Zero mosque, the decision to suspend the al Nashiri proceedings has nothing to do with justice and a lot to do with politics. The shame is that, once again, those who suffer are the families of those killed by terror, not the terrorists themselves.

OBAMA SAID ON TV MONTHS AGO THAT HE WAS MUSLIM.
HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE WAS A FRAUD. I HAVE A CERTIFIED HAWAIIN BIRTH CERTIFICATE DATED AUGUST 5, 1961.
AND HIS LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THE ORIGINAL ONE I HAVE. THE FAKE HE PRODUCED WAS DONE WITH A LASER PRINTER WHICH HAD NOT BEEN INVENTED IN THE 1961. HE IS A PHONY. HIS APPROVAL RATING IS 27%. AND THAT IS A FACT.

RNN has turned fuzzy math into fuzzy facts:

Richard French’s summary on the Beck rally:
During the Beck rally we did not see very many signs of Obama pictured as Hitler like we did last summer but make no mistake, these people are anti-Obama.

Fact:
You did not see ANY signs of Obama pictured as Hitler. We saw mainly a non-partisan, religious message but when the facts don’t fit the progressive agenda those facts must to be changed.

All statements by callers about Obama being a Muslim:
People that say that are haters, inciting a riot, there is going to be race riots, it has to do with the Mosque, all Muslims are not bad…

RF’s response:
Regarding the hate, I agree. Regarding the Mosque/Muslim’s being bad, that wasn’t the question he is not Muslim and why didn’t anybody question whether Bush was Muslim?

It’s becoming the Richard and Drew comedy hour.

Lets see where this goes:

A bigoted pastor who has assailed gays and Muslims is launching the "9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero" a mere two blocks from the World Trade Center site this Sunday but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."

"but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."

No comments here either.

Telling.

"No comments here either."

Sorry Robert, but that's only because the article makes no sense. If any of the hijackers that flew the planes into the WTC were Christian or did so in the name of Christianity, then it would make sense. This is an obvious attempt by Huffington to spin the real reasons for the protest with something totally unrelated. This diversionary tactic is very common by much of the media, especially on the left.

Only a low down racist peice of shit like Al Sharpton and some of the dumb peckerheads that post on this blog would take issue with someone holding a rally, in a national public park, on the anniversary day, that Dr King delivered one of his most famous speech's, 47 years ago.

Have no other rallys been held on this date?

You are entitled to your opinion,,,,,but

Only backward racist ignorant fools would try to limit free speech in America.

Mike.G
Lets try this again then:

Bill Keller raising money to build ground zero church
August 31, 2010 at 12:10 pm by Mitch Perry


St. Petersburg evangelist Bill Keller is one of the most controversial religious figures in Tampa Bay and the country, but he also has a big following, as the leader of the world’s largest interactive Christian website, liveprayer.com.

It seems as if the Huffington Post is not the only one commenting on this.

WAITING PATIENTLY FOR THE 'GROUND ZERO CHURCH' OUTRAGE.... A radical Christian preacher in Florida named Bill Keller has an idea. Apparently, what lower Manhattan really needs is a "9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero" that would -- as luck would have it -- be two city blocks away from where the Twin Towers once stood.

Mike G.
I see someone made a comment from the above post which seems to address your statement.

"While radical Christians didn't blow up the WTC, two of them did blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, an incident which was, prior to 9/11, the deadliest terrorist attack in US history. And I would also note that, from a historical perspective, Islam will have to go on a bloody rampage for quite a while to catch up w/Christianity in that regard."

Robert, I know Huffington would not be the only one commenting because they are not the only one's with an agenda. How is it that you still don't see that the differences and the diversion based on irrelevant comparisons? If you did you would see the simple answers to your question as to why there is no outrage.

Some things to ponder, look closely at the inconsistencies and diversions and you will find your answer:

Number 3: The two terrorists in Oklahoma were of the Christian faith but did not do it in the name of Christianity. They did not declare a jihad or do it because of their faith.

Number 2: Since certain media can't rely on simple truth, they reach into the past and use fuzzy math and fuzzy facts, to try and make their point. This is common practice. For example;
168 dieing in Oak.is not deadlier then 3000 people in NYC. There is continued terrorism by Islamic extremists in many places of the world compared to little or no Christin extremists today but they try to reach back in history and say Christians were bloody. Whether that is true or not (fuzzy fact)it still is not relevant today and for this issue.

And the number 1 answer: Oklahoma city is NOT NYC. Nobody is protesting the building of a Mosque in Oklahoma so why would anyone protest building a Christian center by the WTC, in comparison?

Don't you see this argument makes no sense?

"Comment from: Mike G [Visitor]
Robert, I know Huffington would not be the only one commenting because they are not the only one's with an agenda."

One has to have an agenda to tell the people whats going on?

Robert

Sounds like you are justifying moslem jihad against non beleivers, because christians crusaders did it too.

MikeG;
McVeigh was a New York born Irish Catholic.

Even though The Turner Diaries and Unintended Consequences were his bibles, nobody knows for sure if he was an Aryan-Christian Identity true beleiver.
He had allegiecies in those circles however, as he was probably only attracted to the radical anti us govt ideology espoused by those groups.

Make no mistake Christian Identity, ARA, Aryan and Silent Brotherhood are just as dangerous as wahabbis, taliban, and other minority radical true beleivers in the muslem, christian, catholic, jewish, santa muerte ect ect, faiths.

Their core beleif is armageddon, the end of times. Doomsday prophet-izers. They beleive that them and only them have the keys to the kingdom of after life. All the big religeons have a lock on this.
They also beleive that some 'other' relegous factions have power in govt and are forcing them to deal with ideology not their own. Some issues are, race, womens movement, abortion, retail blue laws-ie retail on the sabbath, school prayer, seperation of church and state, gun contol, homosexuality 'rights', porography, marriage laws, sharia law, dress code, freedom of speech issues, ect,ect,ect.

The great thing about America is, nothing is written in stone except the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Freedom to peacefully express ones opinions matter first and foremost. The great thing about open discussion is that steadfast opinions are open to and can change or modify.

McVeigh actions were the absolute worst. Blowing up the innocent is not freedom of speech or the correct desimation of personal beleif. Ironicaly McVeigh mirrored the US Govt sollution to the arrest of David Koresh.

Free opinion is the basis of our society, but one would be a fool not to listen to everything that is said. Actions speak louder than words. Action is what we need to be viligant about.

My original question:on 8/31/10.

"Lets see where this goes:

A bigoted pastor who has assailed gays and Muslims is launching the "9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero" a mere two blocks from the World Trade Center site this Sunday but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."


My response since there was no response to the Question on9/1/10.

"but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."

No comments here either.

Telling. "

And back and forth with Mike G,who seem to have an intial problem with Huffington Post being one of many people who covered that story,to fred saying this"Robert

Sounds like you are justifying moslem jihad against non beleivers, because christians crusaders did it too."

All I can say is WOW!

What makes it so funny to me is that I still never got a response to the orignal question.

So again I say"Telling"

Robert, I see the problem. You are commenting on the window dressing but never bother to look through the window. I don't know how I can explain it any plainer but I will try:

Your comment, "the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."

The answer:

Mosque = Islamic religion.

Ground Zero caused by Islamic Extremist.

Reason for protest = building new Mosque in the that location.

Christians extremist or particular bigots did NOT cause Ground Zero so "not a peep of protests".

Mosques in other locations are NOT being protested "by THOSE who are outraged" about ground zero.

Robert.
All I can say is WOW too!

The people of the United States have, for the most part through their elected leaders, persued a war of attrition against the Muslim reliogous groups Al Quaeda and the Taliban. We are in ACTIVE MILITARY WAR with muslim groups who represent their version of Islam.

And when a muslim group, no matter how 'moderate' they claim they are, want to build an Islamic mosque community center, 500 feet from Americas NATIONAL GAPING WOUND, (while we are still at war with their muslim brothers) is in my opinion, a very stupid gesture of good will.

TO MAKE THIS VERY VERY SIMPLE FOR YOU....NOBODY IS BITCHIN ABOUT THE CHRISTIAN EXTREMIST DESIRE TO BUILD A CHURCH NEAR THE 911 SITE BECAUSE AMERICA VALUES FREEDOM OF SPEECH.....BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WE ARE NOT AT WAR WITH CHRISTIANS. IF WE WERE, YOU CAN BET THERE WOULD BE VOCAL OPPOSITION.

WE ARE IN ACTIVE WAR WITH A FACET OF OF MOSLEM ISLAM. AND THE CENTER-NO MATTER HOW MODERATE THEY CLAIM TO BE, STILL REPRESENTS AN ICON OF WHAT WE ARE AT WAR WITH.

Robert. What does the hole in the ground, that used to be the World Trade Centers represent to you?

"They beleive that them and only them have the keys to the kingdom of after life."- Fred

Fred, a true believer should believe that way. In the Christian Bible Jesus says, "No man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If I think all religions are the way to God, then I deny the Gospel.

The only thing that would make this wrong is if I trampled your rights to believe any way you want to. You have the right to believe that your way is right and I have the right to believe that my way is right.

That freedom to believe any way, must never be stifled. In the end, God will judge accordingly, by truth.

yeah right. In the christian world, Sunday is the most segregated day of the week.

That freedom to believe any way, must never be stifled-Mike G....then what is the point of mission work.

A few questions. Dont answer in your 'own' opinion, just state the facts as you know them.

1. Who are the chosen people?
2. Who goes to heaven and who dosent and what happens to the souls who dont?
3. Is there more than one heaven?
4. Do living human being who are true beleivers, beleive that they, are superior because of the explicit promise of an afterlife?

The intifada started in Genesis 16:12

And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

ISHMAEL IS THE FOUNDER OF Jebusites, Canaanites, Amorites, Philistines, Hivites, Hittites, Midianites, Amalekites, Egyptians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, Arabs, Medes and Persians.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Moses of Israel won and Pharaoh of Egypt lost.

David of Israel won and Goliath of Philistines lost.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Caspian....You are a perfect example.

You qoute from the scripture then spit on the prophecy. Typical.

The existence of GOD is without question. The MAN MADE RELIGEONS that espouse, that the only way to GOD is through their subjugation, is ludicrous.

Invented by human beings to divide and conquer. The 'holy' books cover all the bases. Any 'self-rightous' person can find scripture after scripture that will self justify any human behavior. Not limited to shintos, protestants, catholics, muslims, jews, christians, aztecs,....the list of "The Chosen" is endless. Exclusionary private clubs.

Only the seriously ill or deluded claim to know the Way, the Will, and the Mind of God.

Dont worry Caspian. You are not alone. There are Billions of people in this world who think just like you.

For that is the nature of the 'Beast'. Who else would invent seperatist relegeon?

Man made religeon SEPERATES human beings. Very well, I might add.

"Comment from: fred [Visitor]
Robert.
All I can say is WOW too!

The people of the United States have, for the most part through their elected leaders, persued a war of attrition against the Muslim reliogous groups Al Quaeda and the Taliban. We are in ACTIVE MILITARY WAR with muslim groups who represent their version of Islam."

What does the above have to do with this?

" A bigoted pastor who has assailed gays and Muslims is launching the "9-11 Christian Center at Ground Zero" a mere two blocks from the World Trade Center site this Sunday but so far the project hasn't drawn a peep of protest from those who are outraged by the "ground zero mosque."??

OR MAYBE COULD IT BE FOR THESE ASSORTED REASONS???
----------------------------------------

Obama Doesn’t Know Rights From Wrongs

September 03, 2010


What’s wrong with President Obama and his administration is that they don’t know rights from wrongs.
They are more concerned with:

• The PLO’s rights rather than the PLO’s wrongs. In inviting Palestine Liberation Organization Chairman Mahmoud Abbas and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to Washington to restart peace talks after a two-year hiatus, Obama perpetuated the illusion that the PLO has any credibility as a reliable partner. The PLO has repeatedly reinforced its commitment to kill Jews and destroy Israel. For decades, the PLO has misappropriated countless billions in U.S. and foreign aid. Before it gets negotiating “rights” the PLO needs to demonstrate through actions that it is capable of renouncing violence and corruption and that it can honor—rather than consistently violate—any agreement.

• An Imam’s Rights Rather than an Imam’s Wrongs. Obama buys into the “religious rights” argument of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf to build a $100-million mosque and Muslim cultural center near Ground Zero. But the issue is how wrong the location is. Obama also disregards Rauf’s refusal to acknowledge Hamas as a terrorist group and Rauf’s assertion that U.S. foreign policy caused 9/11. The president must realize that Rauf misused his “goodwill” trip to the Middle East (funded by taxpayer dollars!) as a publicity and fundraising stunt.

• Terrorists’ Rights Rather Than Terrorists’ Wrongs. The Obama “Justice” Department has dropped the prosecution of Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the accused coordinator of the Oct. 2000 suicide attack on the USS Cole in Yemen. It has also granted Miranda rights (the "right to remain silent") to the Christmas Day and Times Square bombers and it fights to provide civilian (rather than military) trial rights to terrorists including admitted 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Terrorists terrorize us twice when our legal system uses wrong reasoning to give them “rights.”

• Unions’ Rights Rather Than Unions’ Wrongs. Obama has given unions sweetheart deals that raise corruption and cronyism to obscene levels. For example, in the government takeover of General Motors, as The New York Post reported, the Obama-supporting United Auto Workers got: “a remarkable 17.5 percent of the stock plus $2.5 billion in cash plus $6.5 billion in preferred stock carrying a dividend of about 9 percent. In other words, the UAW got three to four times as much as [private] bondholders for a smaller claim on GM's assets. The union even boasted to its members in May 2009 that it had made no concessions on pay, health care or pensions in the restructuring. In effect, the government divided up GM's creditors into favored and unfavored groups, then gave a fat stake in the reorganized business to the favored (aka longtime Democratic Party donors).” Whether it’s health care reform, educational reform or any other kind of reform, Obama and his administration always find ways to serve up sweet treatments for unions and sour treatments for the public.

• Illegal Immigrants’ Rights Rather Than Illegal Immigrants’ Wrongs. The Obama administration’s insistence that the federal government has exclusive authority over immigration laws has resulted in the perpetuation of abuses by illegal immigrants and in the Justice Department suing Arizona for trying to enforce immigration laws that the feds either won’t or can’t. A recent study conducted by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) says harboring illegal immigrants costs an average of $1,117 for every “native-headed” household in America. FAIR estimates that $52 billion is spent on schooling the children of illegals, $28.6-billion is spent by the federal government in “illegal related costs” and state and local budgets are crippled with $84.2 billion in illegal immigrants’ costs. One example FAIR gives is that the $21.8-billion California spends on illegal immigration is $8 billion more than the state’s current budget deficit of $13.8 billion. For those who argue that FAIR is being unfair, it is indisputable that illegal immigrants are inflicting enormous costs on our health, educational and criminal prevention systems. Illegal behavior should not be a passport to undue “rights.”

• Financial Scammers’ Rights Rather than Financial Scammers’ Wrongs. Take your pick: certain Wall Street firms, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, mortgage brokers and borrowers—the list seems endless. Obama and his administration have created moral hazard and monetary mayhem with the nation’s financial system and have battered, bruised and scorned law-abiding, taxpaying Americans. In Obama’s upside down world of bailouts, handouts, buyouts, copouts, and sellouts, the wrongdoers get rewarded and the right doers get punished.

How can a president be right when he and his administration can’t tell rights from wrongs?

Fred, I am trying to understand your statements. It sounds like you believe in God but not organized religion or the Bible or the church or the preachers or anything other then what your mind or heart tells you is true and you except the idea that you don’t know the way, the will or the mind of God, only that he exists. And that the purpose of the holy books and the religions are to control, conquer, divide, separate and exclude human beings.

Of Course you have a right to believe this way but let me offer another way. Everyone’s belief has to have an authority. If for example, I choose to believe only what my mind says is right based on nothing and nobody else, then I am the authority. If on the other hand, I choose to believe in the Holy Bible then that is my authority. I trust the truth in the bible much more then I trust myself because I have nothing to base that believe on, except for what I am feeling.

I suggest you have it all wrong. The Christian faith based on the bible is not a private exclusive club but a very open invitation. Everyone is invited. The only ones that are excluded, are those that want to be.

"What does the above have to do with this?" -Robert

Robert, the Tennis US Open is in town. I think it's appropriate to use an old expression made famous by John McEnroe, "You can't be serious!"

Hey Mike G. I'm feeling alittle guilty about the whole Robert situation. A higher authority, taught us early on, not to tease the kids on the short bus.
Even if they do grow up to be voters.

"I'm feeling a little guilty about the whole Robert situation. A higher authority, taught us early on, not to tease the kids on the short bus."

Fred, ultimately I suppose, it's the spirit in us that determines whether we should accept the teachings of that higher authority.

In Robert's case, all he did was ask an obvious question. Those that are mean spirited would ridicule someone just for that. That's not what happened here. At some point though, if one continues to debate that obvious question, it is more merciful and compassionate to that person, to try and end the debate, even if it requires a little teasing to do so.

"While radical Christians didn't blow up the WTC, two of them did blow up the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, an incident which was, prior to 9/11, the deadliest terrorist attack in US history. And I would also note that, from a historical perspective, Islam will have to go on a bloody rampage for quite a while to catch up w/Christianity in that regard."

-------------------------------------

McVeigh No Christian; Worshipped Himself; Said “Science Is My Religion”:


It’s back - the Big Lie that Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. In the November 2008 issue of “Christianity Today” magazine, Dalia Mogahed, a Muslim, is interviewed. She’s co-author of the book “Who Speaks For Islam? What A Billion Muslims Really Think” (Gallup Press, 2008). When her questioner asks why she suggests that domestic terrorist Timothy McVeigh was a Christian, Mogahed says, with no examples mentioned: “I refer to his writings….Timothy McVeigh’s radical ideas, reflected in his writings, carry symbols of Christianity.” Symbols, schymbols. McVeigh was no Christian. The following column of mine on this subject appeared in “Human Events” on May 6, 2002.


It’s a Big Lie that’s been repeated many times since the terrorist attacks of 9/11. But it’s demonstrably not true. And the fact that it is not true was easily discoverable with just a little research. The big lie? That Oklahoma bomber and mass murderer Timothy McVeigh was a Christian. Here are just a few of the folks who have told this big lie:

*

Objecting to Muslims and Islam being blamed for terrorism, Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation Of Islam, has said, according to the,Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service (9/17/01): “Timothy McVeigh was from a Christian nation . . and nobody said the Christian Timothy McVeigh, they said Timothy McVeigh.”
*

The Boston Herald (10/07/01) quotes convicted rapist/boxer Mike Tyson as saying: “Religion can’t be defined from one single person’s action. Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.”
*

The Providence Journal-Bulletin (9/18/01) quotes Reem Alkurdi, a Muslim, as saying, Timothy McVeigh was a Christian-American.” But, nobody is blaming “all the Christian-Americans.”
*

The St. Louis Post-Dispatch (9/18/01) quotes Suleiman Badwan, a Muslim, as saying: “Don’t target me… . Tim McVeigh was a Christian … and he still blew up a federal building.”
*

The Denver Post (9/16/01) quotes Imam Tali Eid of the Islamic Center of New England in Quincy, Mass., as saying, “’[A]t the time of McVeigh I haven’t seen any minister or priest’ having to defend his faith because McVeigh was a Christian.”
*

The Manchester Union Leader (9/12/01) quotes Shuja U. Saleem, who’s on the board of the Islamic Society of Greater Manchester, as saying that even though McVeigh was a Christian, “nobody points a finger at Christianity.”
*

The Minnesota Daily student newspaper (9/25/01) quotes Sarah Schadegg as saying, “Timothy McVeigh was a Christian but we didn’t label him the Christian bomber.”
*

The Canadian newspaper The Record (9/24/01), in Kitchner-Waterloo, quotes the mayor of Kitchner, Carl Zehr, as saying, “We don’t condemn Christianity because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.”
*

The Los Angeles New Times newspaper (9/20/01) quotes Naji Harden, president of the Islamic Center of Hawthorne’s board of trustees, as saying, “The bomber of the Oklahoma federal building was a Christian, but we didn’t hear people singling out Christians.”
*

An article in USA Today (11/7/01) says, of many Muslims interviewed, that “several mentioned Timothy McVeigh. The media, they say, did not call McVeigh a Christian terrorist, but simply a terrorist.”
*

Nationally syndicated editorial cartoonist Mike Peters, whose cartoons appear in many newspapers, drew one cartoon labeling Timothy McVeigh as a Christian.
*

And in Reason magazine (12/1/01), Abdulwahab Alkebsi, a Muslim from Yemen, is quoted as saying: “Let’s call bin Laden what he is: He is a terrorist. It has nothing to do with Islam-just as much as you don’t want to call Timothy McVeigh a Christian terrorist or a Christian killer.”

OK. Get the point? Of course. Because it’s impossible to miss the point: Just as we ought not to blame Christianity because mass murderer Tim McVeigh was a Christian, so we also ought not to blame Islam because some terrorists are Muslims.

But is the point true? Was Tim McVeigh a Christian? No, he was not. And, as I say, even the most basic research would have exposed this big lie.

For example, there is the book “American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing” (ReganBooks, 2001) written by Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck, who are staff reporters for the “Buffalo News” in New York. In this book, Michel and Herbeck tell how McVeigh committed adultery, was a thief and used illegal drugs, acts that are, to put it mildly, not fruits of the Christian Spirit. Ditto, his mass murders, incidentally.

Michel and Herbeck also tell how during the Gulf War McVeigh lied about attending church: “On Sunday mornings, the recruits were required to either attend church services or spend an hour cleaning the barracks. McVeigh, an agnostic, chose to clean the barracks until he found out that nobody took attendance at church. One Sunday, he signed up for church and just slipped away from the rest of his platoon. He found a field of tall grass and lay there, a little worried about snakes, but enjoying the opportunity to relax in solitude. The following Sunday, McVeigh signed up for church again. This time, he sneaked into an old abandoned barracks to kill time.”

Another story. Michel and Herbeck tell how McVeigh once “paid a visit to the local Seventh Day Adventist Church, but he found that service bored him … McVeigh had never been inclined to criticize people for their religious views, but he concluded that organized religion wasn’t really for him. He believed that the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside of them.” (emphasis mine.)

But the smoking gun is a quote by McVeigh himself regarding what he believed. Michel and Herbeck say that McVeigh would tell friends, “Science is my religion.” (emphasis mine.) To worship at the altar of science is, of course, idolatry and not Christianity.

Finally, in an interview, Lou Michel told me: No, Tim McVeigh was not a Christian-“though he acknowledged the possibility of a higher power. But, he didn’t accept Jesus Christ as his personal Savior, so far as I know.”

Michel notes that, at the end, McVeigh did pray with a chaplain and receive the anointing of the sick, known as the last rites in the Roman Catholic Church. “But,” says Michel, “I think he was just covering his bases.” He didn’t ask for the last rites until they were offered to him.

Whether McVeigh really repented and had a true conversion no one can know. But either way, the event happened long after he had committed-as a non-Christian-his act of terror in Oklahoma City.

With science as his religion, the terrorist Timothy McVeigh was much closer to being a Nazi than a Christian. When a Dr. Nyiszli asked the Nazi butcher Joseph Mengele, in Auschwitz: “When will all this extermination cease?”, Mengele answered, “My friend! It will go on, and on, and on.”

To be sure, many times the Nazi analogy is too quickly invoked or misapplied. But, when it comes to those, like McVeigh, who claim their cause justifies mass murder, the comparison is accurate and deserved.

"Just as we ought not to blame Christianity because mass murderer Tim McVeigh was a Christian, so we also ought not to blame Islam because some terrorists are Muslims."

Bill, for me the point is simple. Everyone human being either identifies with some religion or faith or simply has no belief in God. Therefore, every crime or act of terrorism committed by a human being has to fit in these category's and I suspect throughout history all will have committed some heinous act, so all are to blame.

The question is not whether someone is a Muslim or Christian or any other faith but whether or not the crime committed was done in the name of their faith or because of their faith and whether their is still a viable threat.

Would it be bigoted or hateful for an abortion clinic to protest the building of a Catholic church down the road from them? I could understand it if the clinic protested, the same way I could understand protests against the Mosque.

The truth does not take sides but looks objectively at the situation and comments honestly. The spin doctors you mention in your article don't think that way because they have an agenda and that agenda is to favor one side over the other. I suspect these same people would not stick up for the Catholic church but only for their side and their belief, which makes them bias, using anything even false propaganda to continue their cause.

"know it all"
A person who's quick to interrupt the actions, comments, or approach of others on just about everything they say and do, so as to disapprove in some way and try to correct them with their own flawed views on a topic.

BTW:
The term"shortbus" is that something you recite when you have that"sheet"over your head?

The Sage Hillel, an elder contemporary of Jesus of Nazareth, formulated a negative form of the golden rule. When asked to sum up the entire Torah concisely, he answered[46]:

That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation.

Sounds like good advice to me.....

very "telling" robert!

Only the seriously ill or deluded claim to know the Way, the Will, and the Mind of God.

Dont worry Caspian. You are not alone. There are Billions of people in this world who think just like you.

-----------------

fred, you have free choice to believe or not.

As for me and my house we will serve the LORD.

-----------------------
Joshua 24:15

15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

"Bill, for me the point is simple. Everyone human being either identifies with some religion or faith or simply has no belief in God. Therefore, every crime or act of terrorism committed by a human being has to fit in these category's and I suspect throughout history all will have committed some heinous act, so all are to blame."-Mike G.

So mike, for the heinous acts committed, are you blameing, the persons accociated with such acts? the religeons, faiths, or lack of, for the acts? or a combination of the two?

Wouldnt it be alot easier, if say, hypotheticly, Catholics and Christians stopped reading the Bible and concetrated more on things like the Saint Francis prayer?

A metaphorically written book used as a spiritual authority... is open to many theological and political iterpretations. No?

Some of the interpretations have led to great misery throughout the ages. No?

Those who interpreted passages in certain ways, and who brought forth great death to the lands, were moraly correct. No? In the context of the interpretation. History has shown us that one can justify any means to acheive a spritual or moral victory if one interprets that which he is reading is truth.

The Bible, the Koran, and the Torah, may be in these categories?

IF the shoe fits.

Let me re iterate Caspian. You seem mis-guided. You posted:

The intifada started in Genesis 16:12

And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

ISHMAEL IS THE FOUNDER OF Jebusites, Canaanites, Amorites, Philistines, Hivites, Hittites, Midianites, Amalekites, Egyptians, Chaldeans, Babylonians, Arabs, Medes and Persians.

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Moses of Israel won and Pharaoh of Egypt lost.

David of Israel won and Goliath of Philistines lost.---CASPIAN


Caspian: You have co-opted verse to suit your self centered, ego driven need. Then have the audacity to end your comment with:

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

Some f'n christian....you going to fake it till you make it? Caspian you are a spiritual GIANT. And a blaspemer.

Quote verse and then question Gods existence?

Dont worry Caspian, like I said before....you are in good company. As there are Billions of people just like you who co-opt and interperet the different "books" to suit your own ego, self centered driven, humanistic needs.

And not for nothing Caspian, the fourth Gospel -according to John- is Johns written opinion, based loosely on the factual and historical knowledge in Gospels 1 to 3.

"So mike, for the heinous acts committed, are you blameing, the persons accociated with such acts? the religeons, faiths, or lack of, for the acts? or a combination of the two? Wouldnt it be alot easier, if say, hypotheticly, Catholics and Christians stopped reading the Bible and concetrated more on things like the Saint Francis prayer?"-Fred

Fred, I was blaming the person, who happened to be a non-believer or of a particular religion and if the act was not done in the name of their religion, then mis-interpretation would NOT be to blame.

And to your second point, EASIER means nothing. That's like saying it would be easier if it never rained. There would be no floods, nor leaky basements, nor down trees, nor deaths caused by the storm but we need the rain to live. It brings forth both life and death.

In much the same way the Gospel or the word of God, is the water that brings forth life. It is the path to God and the way of salvation through Jesus Christ. What could be more important?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
2 Timothy 3:16

"Dont worry Caspian, like I said before....you are in good company."

That's right Fred, count me in. I am in total agreement with Caspian when it comes to Christianity. The reason it is called faith and not fact is because it's based on belief, you can't prove it until you leave this world. Even many Apostles who met Jesus directly would often have doubts in times of trouble. That's because we are human beings. We worship God in spirit and in truth and have no confidence in the flesh.

The statement Caspian made I have heard before, its not from the bible but it is directed toward the unbeliever as a way to get them to think about eternity:
"I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is."

By using "I" It's less judgmental then "you' as in the Beatles song, "Within You Without You":

"We were talking-about the love that's gone so cold and the people,
Who gain the world and lose their soul-
They don't know-they can't see-are you one of them?"

Even many Apostles who met Jesus directly would often have doubts in times of trouble. That's because we are human beings. We worship God in spirit and in truth and have no confidence in the flesh.

================

Mike G. your response to fred was excellent.

As you well know some of the Apostles died horrible deaths all because they would not deny JESUS came back from the dead.

Some f'n christian....you going to fake it till you make it? Caspian you are a spiritual GIANT. And a blaspemer.

---------------

fred, I am a sinner saved by GODS Grace.

I am not better than anyone else.

--------------------

Ephesians 2:8

God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

"An Accurate Look at Timothy McVeigh's Beliefs

By: Bruce Prescott
Posted: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 9:08 pm
Section: Columns on Church and Theology"

Timothy McVeigh: A CHRISTIAN TERRORIST?


INTRODUCTION

It appears that there are some out there who have asserted the claim that the Oklahoma City Bomber Timothy McVeigh was a Christian or at the least, a self-professed Christian. This claim sadly enough, had been used in different arguments for varying ranges of issues.

For instance, Minister Louis Farrakhan, head of the Nation of Islam (NOI) in a speech at a Chicago mosque referred to how the mass media did not state that terrorist Timothy McVeigh was a Christian.

Farrakhan is quoted by Cybercast News Service (CNS) as saying:



"Even though his crime was the most horrific committed up until that time, no one said Christian Timothy McVeigh, they just said Timothy McVeigh.”(SEE NOTE 1)



The writer of this article also recalls that right after September 11th, other Islamic leaders besides Farrakhan have made the same claim about McVeigh being a “Christian”. Mike Tyson was an example of a prominent Muslim who also referred to McVeigh as a Christian after the 9/11 incident.



DAN BARKER ASSERTION IN PARTICULAR

Interestingly enough, Muslims were not the only one who has been saying this. The atheist Dan Barker has been as well. In a particular editorial in “Freethought Today”, that serves as the regular newspaper publication of Freedom From Religion Foundation (the organization Dan Barker belongs to), they had a piece titled “Christian Terrorism In Oklahoma City”. (See NOTE 2)

Dan Barker asks rhetorically:



“Why is no one calling the Oklahoma City bombing suspects ‘Christian terrorists’?”(SEE NOTE 3)



The heart of the matter to Barker’s essay was the claim that McVeigh was in his understanding, a Christian. (SEE NOTE 4) It was to him, something that was obvious yet people tried to “see” God into the tragedy in a positive light instead:



“Ignoring the obvious religious connections here, everyone seems eager to turn this tragedy into an opportunity to acknowledge a deity.”



He then takes the moment to attack Christianity and the concept of belief in God from the fulcrum that the Oklahoma City Bomber was a “Christian” even having the audacity to go on and blame Christianity for the bombing:



“Since Christianity has a history of bloody persecution, wouldn't it make more sense for Freeh to identify religion as the culprit here?



Though Barker went tangent into other unrelated areas in his essay, we would be focusing this article more narrowly to the issue that is the fulcrum, the crux of his essay: Was Timothy Mc McVeigh a Christian?



NO WAY, MCVEIGH

How anyone could say McVeigh was a Christian is beyond this writer’s mind. His action and deeds definitely does not reflect that of a virtuous believer. Even more, there has not been any quotation of the Oklahoma City Bomber professing any Christian faith. Barker does not quote a single reference to back his allegation. On the contrary we see that there is documentation that he did not accept the Christian faith.

In an article by United Kingdom’s “The Guardian” about McVeigh’s execution, we find this reference:



“In his letter, McVeigh said he was an agnostic but that he would "improvise, adapt and overcome", if it turned out there was an afterlife. "If I'm going to hell," he wrote, "I'm gonna have a lot of company." His body is to be cremated and his ashes scattered in a secret location.”(SEE NOTE 5)



Note the above that McVeigh “said he was an agnostic” but not only that, but that he was defiant about hell itself and remain unrepentant. Then we also find the same statement that he was an agnostic admitted by Lou Michel during a cyber interview with CNN. Lou Michel spent hours interviewing McVeigh in writing a book titled, “American Terrorist: Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing”. Michel’s words are enlightening:



Lou Michel: McVeigh is agnostic. He doesn't believe in God, but he won't rule out the possibility. I asked him, ‘What if there is a heaven and hell?’

He said that once he crosses over the line from life to death, if there is something on the other side, he will -- and this is using his military jargon – ‘adapt, improvise, and overcome.’ Death to him is all part of the adventure.”(SEE NOTE 6)



CONCLUSION

If McVeigh never admitted to being a Christian but rather stated that he was an agnostic, how did Dan Barker and others come to this false conclusion? It appears that at least in Barker’s case, he desires to hijack this false assertion to take the opportunity to slander Christianity. Whatever is the case, God would be the ultimate Judge and its this author’s prayer that Barker and others like him repent to knowing knowledge of Jesus as Lord and Savior.



--Jimmy Li



NOTE 1

Morano, Marc. “Farrakhan Warns of Armageddon if US Retaliates.” Cybercast News Service 17 September 2001:



NOTE 2

The date of this opinion piece was May, 1995. Though it is a bit of an older writing of Barker, it must still be dealt with as the organization Freedom From Religion Foundation still has this accessible on their website online without any retraction. The link to it can be accessed at http://ffrf.org/fttoday/1995/may95/oklahoma.html



NOTE 3

Barker, Dan. “Christian Terrorism In Oklahoma City.” Freethought Today May 1995



NOTE 4

From the context of this particular essay Barker uses the term Christian and Catholic loosely and even interchangeable. This seems to be his belief as can be seen in even his other writings such as his book, “Losing Faith in Faith”.



NOTE 5

Borger, Julian. “McVeigh faces day of reckoning.” The Guardian June 11th 2001.



NOTE 6

Entire transcript at http://www.cnn.com/COMMUNITY/transcripts/2001/04/04/michelherbeck/

"If McVeigh never admitted to being a Christian but rather stated that he was an agnostic, how did Dan Barker and others come to this false conclusion? It appears that at least in Barker’s case, he desires to hijack this false assertion to take the opportunity to slander Christianity."

Makes good sense Bill. The logic is simple:

If someone is a TRUE Christian he would NOT commit such acts and neither would a TRUE Muslim. Only a FALSE Christian/ Muslim/other Religion or non-believer would do such heinous acts.

The biggest difference between 9/11 and Oklahoma City is 9/11 was caused by not only false Muslim's but ones that did it in the name of their religion. Remember they were expecting Allah to reward them with 72 virgins. So that was a religious terrorist act, where Oklahoma City was a terrorist act that had NOTHING to do with Christianity.

Timothy 2:3: "Thou shalt endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ"

If Oklahoma City had nothing to do with Christianity, then why, pray tell, was the bombing in retaliation to the ( u s govt ) murder of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas and the murder of Randy Webbers family at Ruby Ridge?

All that is known about McViegh is he admits growing up as a Catholic, drifted away from Catholsicm, spent much of his adult life around hard right true beleiver christian organizations like the AyranBros, Christian Identity, SOG, ect.

But his actions speak volumes.....wouldnt you say?

There are some super bad people representing in the different 'christian religeons'. They study the bible just like you do.

Whose to say that someone who is a true beleiver is not?

you?

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"
2 Timothy 3:16

Mike and Caspian. When you try to 'back up' sripture by using some secular sayings you have garnered along the way. ie "I would rather live my life as if there is a God, ect.

You wanna mix and match....feel free. But please dont make claims to scripture-rightousness because its the easy thing to do.

What would jesus do, turn the other cheek, live and let live, who am i to pass judgment, bla blah blah........youd never know it by the way of your political and social commentary on these comment boards.

You are entitled to your opinion, but if you are as you say you are....prove it.

Only a FALSE Christian/ Muslim/other Religion or non-believer would do such heinous acts.--MIKE G


If history teaches us anything, it proves that you are wrong.

So So very wrong!

And acceptance is the answer to all my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing, or situation-some fact of my life -unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake.

"God, I offer myself to Thee--to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life.

May I do Thy will always!"

“Lord, make me an instrument of peace.
Where there is hatred, may I bring love;
Where there is offense, forgiveness;
Where there is doubt, faith;
Where there is desperation, may I bring hope;
Where there is sadness, let me bring joy;
Allow me to console, rather than to be consoled;
To understand, rather than to be understood;
To love, rather than be loved;
Because, giving is receiving;
Because, it is in forgiving, that we are forgiven."

People are often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered; ...Forgive them anyway.

If you are kind, people may accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives; ...Be kind anyway.

If you are successful, you will win some false friends and some true enemies; ...Succeed anyway.

If you are honest and frank, people may cheat you; ...Be honest and frank anyway.

What you spend years building, someone could destroy overnight; ...Build anyway.

If you find serenity and happiness, they may be jealous; ...Be happy anyway.

The good you do today, people will often forget tomorrow; ...Do good anyway.

Give the world the best you have, and it may never be enough; ...Give the world the best you've got anyway.

You see, in the final analysis, it is between you and God; It was never between you and them anyway.

I am often unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered.

I appologize.

"The biggest difference between 9/11 and Oklahoma City is 9/11 was caused by not only false Muslim's but ones that did it in the name of their religion. Remember they were expecting Allah to reward them with 72 virgins. So that was a religious terrorist act, where Oklahoma City was a terrorist act that had NOTHING to do with Christianity."



Right on Mike! If anything, McVeigh was the ant-Christ, if any religious signifiance whatsoever. Comparing Timothy McVeigh to Muslim extremeists is like comparing apples to spaghetti...... There couldn't be a weaker argument.

Fred, I will attempt to answer a couple of your questions using human logic backed up with scriptures. In the end, we could both hold firm to our opinions and beliefs, our biases and feelings without any thought but what use is our brain if not to reason? Should we cover our ears so we don’t hear? Should we spit in the face of logic and sound judgment in order to stand on position? In matters of faith we often do that because when we believe, it is between ourselves and our God. It may or may not be logical because it’s based on an undeniable trust. What we are discussing here has nothing to do with personal faith but straight forward common sense logic. So I debate it that way.

“Only a FALSE Christian/ Muslim/other Religion or non-believer would do such heinous acts.--MIKE G If history teaches us anything, it proves that you are wrong.”
“Whose to say that someone who is a true beleiver is not? you? “

The Scriptures:
“Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?”
Matthew 7:16

The Logic:
Are true Christians called upon to commit terrorists acts or kill innocent people? Would people or a country accept those that commit such acts as a valid belief? Do many worshiping Christians believe in evil, thoughtless, hurtful acts? Of course not. What you describe are cults or sects not at all related to TRUE Christianity which is based on love. If it were it would be revolted against by the majority of people. So logically speaking, the people that commit such heinous acts deny their faith teachings and are not true believers. How could they be?

“If Oklahoma City had nothing to do with Christianity, then why, pray tell, was the bombing in retaliation to the ( u s govt ) murder of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas and the murder of Randy Webbers family at Ruby Ridge?”

Your point, I agree is very valid but not completely accurate, given all the facts:

wikipedia
Motive Retaliation for the Waco Siege, Ruby Ridge, other government raids, the Turner Diaries, as well as general U.S. foreign policy

The Logic:
Yes SOME of these had to do with religious cults or sects but that is the ONLY thing that’s in common. One was of a Protestant Sect with a cult like leader. Other’s were white Supremacy, anti-semtic, Nazi types who tried to kill the Pope. There were other raids as well as foreign policy disputes. When you put all these together it’s really difficult to see Christianity as the reason. Did McVeigh believe in all these separate causes and because of Christianity? If not, these causes then what? What logically is in common to all these things? Why it’s government of course. McVeigh was anti-government. He hated government. He did not blow up the federal building because of his Christian beliefs but because he hated government flexing their muscle. At least that sounds more logical to me.

Mike G:
Read, fred 09/02/10-16:56

Fred, yes I read but your statements contradict. I agree with your first statement which makes my point that he did not do it in the name of Christianity but because of anti -gov:

Fred - 9/2 statement:
“nobody knows for sure if he was an Aryan-Christian Identity true beleiver.
He had allegiecies in those circles however, as he was probably only attracted to the radical anti us govt ideology espoused by those groups.”

Fred - 9/5 statement:
“If Oklahoma City had nothing to do with Christianity, then why, pray tell, was the bombing in retaliation to the ( u s govt ) murder of David Koresh and the Branch Davidians in Waco Texas and the murder of Randy Webbers family at Ruby Ridge?”

My feeling is you seem to think there is no difference between a radical cult and mainstream religion just because of a belief in, “ Armageddon, the end of times or the only way to the kingdom of heaven.” A cult is a perversion of the truth, run by false prophets deceiving many. Ultimately this can lead to destruction because only God passes judgment and not man. The fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, self control. This is how you know the true believers by their fruits. Those that commit such evil acts are not Christians, not true believers at all. Someday God will return to judge the living and the dead but anyone on Earth that thinks they have the right to kill and terrorize, is not of God.

ok point well taken. in that case i wont mention the history of ireland, especially the northern part of the past century. we def wont mention the american slave trade and how the indginous north american tribes were systematically slaughtered.

we wont deny god fearing christians ran the us govt during the indian wars and 200 years of slavery. will we.? It will be our secret.

We can forget thr salem witch trials. No reason to bring up the systematic slaughter of the mormons. the jews have had it not so easy over here either. We can forget the christian cults, the hare krishnas, the cult that committed mass sucide to make it to the mother ship, lets not forget the wasp cold war against american catholics. If you can convince me that wasp's didnt run this country for the first 200-250 years we might have somthing to talk about.

You say only god can pass judgement on man. However, if the only way to father-god is through jesus christ, then those who havent accepted jesus christ as saviour cannot gain access to god and there fore cannot be judged by him?

so who has the rightousness? you?
you say you dont have the right to judge anybody.........does that include obama? or bush? congress? senate? or me?

Fred, I know all I SHOULD say is "wow" and end a debate that has drifted way off point. The point being that 9/11 was committed in the name of a religion and Oklahoma City was not but due to my weakness of the flesh, I must respond.

I wonder did this topic light the fuse to your rambling or just anything to do with religion in general that you seem to despise? The only thing you point out is that man is sinful, no kidding. And even those that say they are holy can sin, nothing new there either. That in no way is the fault of Christianity but the fault of sinful man.

So who here on this post has judged you or convicted you? Nobody. If Christianity is my belief and not yours why should you care or feel judged?

Mike G.:

"So who here on this post has judged you or convicted you? Nobody. If Christianity is my belief and not yours why should you care or feel judged?"

Touche!

It must be his 10 gallon turbin. Its a dead give away.